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TalkLeft Discussion Forums  |  Topics  |  Duke Players' Discredited Sexual Assault Case  |  Archived Duke Players' Discredited Sexual Assault Case Topics  |  A new way to fight Nifongism 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: A new way to fight Nifongism  (Read 23057 times)
PB
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2006, 12:53:12 PM »

The presumption of innocence ends, in some legal sense, with a plea of guilt. That doesn't mean it ends for some mother of a murderer or friend of a strangler. But unless a Judge rules in favor of a do-over, the burden of proving guilt no longer falls on the state. The burden of proving innocence attaches to the convicted person.

I don't take offense to that. We're pretty lucky to live in a society that only allows us to be charged once per crime. Society only gets to prove our guilt once. We get to show our innocence over and over.

The thing that's tough for the Orange County Strangler is he blew his opportunity. It's much easier to win a jury trial than to overturn a jury verdict, because of the shifting burdens.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 08:26:51 PM by TalkLeft » Logged
inmyhumbleopinion
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2006, 12:57:19 PM »

It is against the law to grab someone by the throat. He admitted what he had done. What don't you get about that?

I get it fully.  In your opinion, everything leading to death of an individual is murder?  There are never any circumstances that have lead to a death and the person suspected was found not culpable?  Is that what you are saying?  If not, why will you not admit that this person may have been provoked to the point that he was and went nuts?  It is clear from the links I gave that women are equally to blame and in certain cases more in DV issues.  So what is hard for you to understand about that?

This guy may be guilty as sin, I do not know nor is this specific case the whole issue.  The point goes beyond that.



He could have filed charges against her as well.  He could have had a trial where the mitigating circumstances could have been introduced as evidence to the judge or jury. He chose not to. Why?  Because it is against the law to grab someone by the throat and he admitted that he had "snapped" and done just that .
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QT
PB
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2006, 01:03:34 PM »

why will you not admit that this person may have been provoked to the point that he was and went nuts?  It is clear from the links I gave that women are equally to blame and in certain cases more in DV issues.  So what is hard for you to understand about that?

This guy may be guilty as sin, I do not know nor is this specific case the whole issue.  The point goes beyond that.

If he "snapped" he should be pleading temporary insanity, not gaming the system. Society may not provide him a menu that contains exactly what he wants to eat, but it does give him the choice of weapons in the duel.

If he wants a new menu, lobby Congress. I think it's a pretty damn good menu.

Lots of people make mistakes that lead to catastrophic changes in their lives. Sometimes these mistakes are as subtle as turning the steering wheel a little too far left. Putting your hands on your wife's throat with the brief intent of choking her is one of those subtle mistakes. Most "men" already know that. They learned it during the cro-magnon period.
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Bob In Pacifica
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2006, 01:12:04 PM »

IMHO: I can't wait until Barry Scheck analyzes the strangler's fingernail scrapings.

The name of the strangler? How about a citation about this specific case? You see, you know nothing except dc's account and your and the other the enablers' presumptions. Fingernail scrapings? How about a coroner's report? How about aerial photographs of the crime scene? How about the signed confession? How about the plea bargain? Well, maybe it's good that the enabler folks pretend to know about this case. It's been tiresome all that the enablers pretended not to know about the Duke case.

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EC
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2006, 01:17:25 PM »

If he "snapped" he should be pleading temporary insanity, not gaming the system. Society may not provide him a menu that contains exactly what he wants to eat, but it does give him the choice of weapons in the duel.

If he wants a new menu, lobby Congress. I think it's a pretty damn good menu.

Lots of people make mistakes that lead to catastrophic changes in their lives. Sometimes these mistakes are as subtle as turning the steering wheel a little too far left. Putting your hands on your wife's throat with the brief intent of choking her is one of those subtle mistakes. Most "men" already know that. They learned it during the cro-magnon period.

I'm finished with this board, though I wanted to address your comment.  This is all well and good in the hypothetical, however you and I know that in reality, some of our options are simply dead ends.  I do not expect you to admit it, though I and many others know the real world.  I surmise you do as well, though are simply being argumentative and coy.  Cro-magnon  indeed. 

Also, judging by the types of responses, no one bothered to look up any data about DV.  Commenting by rote biased memory suffices for dialogue here I see.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 01:21:39 PM by EC » Logged

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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2006, 01:29:07 PM »

IMHO: I can't wait until Barry Scheck analyzes the strangler's fingernail scrapings.

The name of the strangler? How about a citation about this specific case? You see, you know nothing except dc's account and your and the other the enablers' presumptions. Fingernail scrapings? How about a coroner's report? How about aerial photographs of the crime scene? How about the signed confession? How about the plea bargain? Well, maybe it's good that the enabler folks pretend to know about this case. It's been tiresome all that the enablers pretended not to know about the Duke case.



dc victim told us what he observed while he was at the scene of the crime and when he accompanied the victim to the ER. He told us the strangler's version of events. According to dc victim the strangler did, in fact, "snap" and assault his wife.  He was charged with a felony and pled guilty to a misdemeaner. What more need be said here about this being a "trumped up charge?"
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QT
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2006, 01:57:29 PM »

I'm finished with this board, though I wanted to address your comment.  This is all well and good in the hypothetical, however you and I know that in reality, some of our options are simply dead ends.  I do not expect you to admit it, though I and many others know the real world.  I surmise you do as well, though are simply being argumentative and coy.  Cro-magnon  indeed.

The option of not putting one's hands to one's wife's throat is one we have a very simple, easy-to-understand duty to resist. I don't particularly care to live in a society where this is not the case. So I support the legal system that discourages such acts.

Was the proper course of action for the police arriving at the Orange County Strangler's house to simply ignore the woman, on the grounds that she might be lying? I think we've learned, as a society, not to do that.
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dc victim
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2006, 04:15:22 PM »

New info.  The OCS pled for a prayer for judgement which means he has to attend weekly sessions at his expense at the change program for 6 months. Frankly, I think he learned his lesson but the DV industry I'm sure is happy to find someone who will be sure to pay.  Also this apparently happened after he had gone to bed. His wife came in and picked a fight.  Its not very reasonable to expect him to leave to cool off.  She, on the other hand, could have packed a bag and started making arrangements to permenantly leave as women did back in the day before big brother stepped in. The guy later offered to finance her move and rent etc for six months but no, the advocacy team wants more.
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cib
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2006, 07:24:32 PM »

I sympathize with your friend, and partly agree with some of what you said. But while the punishment may be excessive, in this case some punishment was warranted, though not to the extent you document. However, look at who you are arguing with. Some of them are socks. Do any of them seem like particularily compassionate people to you? I hope you are not more hurt by getting involved in this conversation then you when when what happened with your friend and his SO happened. I'l wish everyone involved well, and I invite you to send me a pm over at the Liestoppers board if you feel the need to talk about this with someone who won't bite your head off.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 08:24:47 PM by TalkLeft » Logged
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2006, 07:57:51 PM »

Sam and EC are going into time out.  3 days.
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sam
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2006, 08:01:19 PM »

Sam and EC are going into time out.  3 days.

Nice. I only responded to insults that were directed towards me FIRST.

This thread started by dcvictim began with insults, jeralyn. Yet, you did nothing about it.
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dc victim
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2006, 08:17:28 PM »



The option of not putting one's hands to one's wife's throat is one we have a very simple, easy-to-understand duty to resist. I don't particularly care to live in a society where this is not the case. So I support the legal system that discourages such acts.

Was the proper course of action for the police arriving at the Orange County Strangler's house to simply ignore the woman, on the grounds that she might be lying? I think we've learned, as a society, not to do that.

Would it be unreasonable to offer to escort the woman to a womens shelter until the facts are sorted out if there are no obvious signs of injury?
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2006, 08:32:24 PM »

Sam, as you know, I've been out of town and not reading the boards.  I start from the latest comment and work backwards.  I'm still working on the thread, but you were way out of line, as was EC.
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sam
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2006, 08:38:25 PM »

Sam, as you know, I've been out of town and not reading the boards.  I start from the latest comment and work backwards.  I'm still working on the thread, but you were way out of line, as was EC.

I don't know where you physically were, jeralyn. I did see you signed on and monitoring the board for quite a while yesterday at least two different times. I was surprised that you didn't delete dcvictim's thread since it started out with calling posters feminazis and then went into some women deserve to be choked b.s.  EC's iniotial comment was also nothing but insults. Yet, it remained.
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Re: A new way to fight Nifongism
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2006, 08:43:49 PM »

This thread is closing. I don't even know what it's about.  But it brought out the worst in posters. It's moving to the archives.
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