Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 23, 2017, 12:39:46 AM
75132 Posts in 1768 Topics by 359 Members
Latest Member: nic4real
Home Help Login Register
TalkLeft Discussion Forums  |  Topics  |  Crimes 'R Us: Crimes in the News  |  Past Cases  |  Next of kin change times [Bundy murders] 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]  (Read 10834 times)
Bob In Pacifica
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4204


Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« on: June 06, 2007, 09:24:39 AM »

As many here discussing the Duke case have pointed out, the sooner the recollection of events by a witness the more likely it is accurate.

In the case of the Simpson-Brown murders Claudine Ratcliffe, the coroner's assistant, called both the Browns and Mr. Goldman on the morning of June 13th the day that the murders were discovered. Because there had been a delay by the police in calling the coroner (in violation of the rules of the State of California) and the bodies had reached the ambient temperature, it could not be determined by that means when the murders had occurred, so finding out when they relatives had last spoken with the victims went a long way in determining the time window when the murders occurred.

As I recall, Mr. Goldman's answer was different from the story he gave in his book. However, more important is the time that Mr. and Mrs. Brown gave for the last time they talked with Nicole.

Ratcliffe, in her report, completed and signed on the 13th, states that the Browns said that they talked with their daughter Nicole after 11p.m. when they got home from dinner. This is about twelve hours after they spoke with her. There are no intervening events to confuse them. There is no long stretch of time to confuse them. This is the morning after they last spoke with their daughter. They know that the coroner needs this information in order to determine when their daughter was murdered.

As followers of the case know, by 11 o'clock O.J. Simpson was loading luggage into the limo that took him to LAX. If he were on his way to the airport and Nicole Simpson was still alive, Simpson could not have been the killer.
Logged
Sydney Carton
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1577


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2007, 03:09:27 PM »

  Bob, I was in England during most of the Simpson trial(they ran several hours a day there also, but very late at night )and so am quite skimpy on  most of the minute,but essential,details.
   I recollect hearing at the very beginning about the Browns'  statement(which I understand they later withdrew when they realized the implications) that they talked to Nicolle  after eleven.
   It woulld have had to have been a long distance call whatever time it was made and there should be phone records.
Apparently neither side produced them or we should certainly have heard  a lot more about this. Have you got any more info?
   Another point along the same lines which  I haven't seen mentioned: OJ took Kato Kalen to eat at the Mezzaluna(spelling?)
sometime after niine o'clock and they were turned away because Nicole  had booked the place. Why would Simpson expect to find his wife home shortly about twenty or thirty minutes after ten when he had seen her at another location,surrounded by guests,within the previous hour?
Logged
Bob In Pacifica
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4204


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2007, 11:10:55 PM »

Since this thread has been up there for a couple of days, I guess people aren't as excited about the topic as they used to be.

As a matter of fact, Marcia Clark blocked Ratcliffe's coroner's assistant's report from being entered into evidence and then later produced a bill dated July 4th (a strange day for the billing office to be working), which put the call at around 9:40, as I recall. The problem is why both parents, about twelve hours later, when talking to the coroner's assistant regarding when they last talked with their daughter in order to determined when she was murdered, would be off by an hour and a half. If I recall, Brown changed the time he claimed that they'd talked with Nicole about two weeks after the murders.
Logged
qintar
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 645


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2007, 11:17:31 PM »

Bob,
         How did Simpsons Lawyers explain the Drops of blood at the Scene(Photos taken before Simpson gave his blood)?
         
         
Logged
Bob In Pacifica
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4204


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2007, 08:39:35 AM »

That part of the case was handled by Barry Scheck and his guys, the only lawyers who I had any respect for. The blood samples collected from the driveway were on cotton swabs, collected about midday June 13 (Simpson gave a sample of blood to the LAPD investigators that same afternoon). They weren't large amounts on the swabs, they were drops collected. The blood dried for the day and the night. So the lab story goes, the blood swabs were then put in the bindles, little paper envelopes, the next morning and were sent to the testing lab. The problem was that the blood smeared on the inside of the bindles. There is no way that the blood would take so long to dry. So the theory was that someone switched swabs collected at the scene with Simpson's blood collected by Lange and Vannatter on the morning of the 14th just before the bindles were sealed and shipped.

There are repeated incidents where pieces of evidence were apparently tampered with after the fact (the worst example being the socks collected in Simpson's bedroom).
Logged
Bob In Pacifica
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4204


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2007, 10:58:07 AM »

Maybe it's because we're in a new millenium, but it's funny how the "crime of the century" has faded in interest. I think that also it has to do with people arriving at decisions. Once a belief becomes part of one's belief system, one doesn't want to disturb it. They know better than to go there. Sort of like religion. Once you've determined a religion (in this world often settled before you're old enough to use logic) that area of the mind becomes off-limits. So today we have people who truly believe that the "messenger of God" rode up to heaven on a winged white horse. Guess what? There are no winged white horses that fly. Never was. And no one has established a heaven, for that matter. Yet there are people killing people over this. And people killing other people (and vice versa) whose messenge rose to heaven without benefit of a winged white horse.

It's not quite so definite, but belief in Simpson's guilt is protected by a similar mental structure. Once you allow the possibility that Simpson is innocent of the murders then you have to accept that others did it, that they set up Simpson (for what possible reason?), that the justice system in L.A. is corrupt, that the talking heads on the TV are corrupt mouthpieces. Well, the Duke case proved all of this, but about Durham.
Logged
ding7777
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 703


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2007, 04:33:58 AM »

Alan Parks testified the white Bronco was on the street as he was exiting OJ's estate on the way to the airport.

Did anyone ever ask him if the Bronco was on the street when he 1st pulled up to OJ's ? Or if the Bronco was there when Parks drove to the other side of the house to smoke and wait for OJ?
Logged
Bob In Pacifica
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4204


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2007, 11:55:58 PM »

ding, he said he didn't see it. Not quite the same as it wasn't there. But if Nicole were chatting on the phone with the Browns as the limo was heading off to LAX, it really doesn't matter.

I must say, considering how everyone was obsessed with this case a decade ago, I find it remarkable how no one seems terribly motivated about it. I'm thinking about posting something about the autopsies which pretty much explodes the prosecution's theory of the case. Maybe I'll wait until the flames around Nifong burn out.
Logged
Sarah
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2251


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2007, 03:45:04 AM »

Why is the thread title headed "Bundy murders" if it is about the Simpson case?  That might be stopping people who want to discuss OJ from reading it.

If it is an error, perhaps you could ask TL to change the thread title.

Logged
Sarah
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2251


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2007, 04:06:05 AM »

The defense team have always claimed that the blood evidence (certainly Ron Goldman and possibly Nicole Simpson both mixed with Simpson's ) in Simpsons bronco was planted, however, I have heard it argued that this would have logistically impossible.

For instance: "Simpson's blood would had to have been mixed with the victims' blood before being placed at the crime scenes which would have meant that police would had to have gathered up blood from all three, (while Simpson was in Chicago) then in LA planted it in the Bronco, at Simpson's house and at Nicole's house all within a matter of maybe an hour or two at best. There would had to have been street cops, detectives, the morgue, the medical examiner, reporters, and city workers in on the deal not to mention the eye witness testimony which gives OJ a solid motive, means, and places him near the scene within minutes of the time the victims died. Is it really possible that all this planted?"

I'd be interested in your views Bob.

   

Logged
Bob In Pacifica
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4204


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2007, 08:59:51 AM »

During the trial there were several witnesses called to the stand who testified that the blood on the console of the Bronco was not there when they examined the vehicle. One was a guy who examined cars that were put up for auction to include cars in accidents where there was plenty of blood. Another was an LAPD officer. The blood wasn't seen and recovered until someone (I believe the police lab director) searched the vehicle weeks or months later with a photographer from some publication. I believe it was Stephen Singular, who wrote a book about developments early in the case (and not very complimentary towards Johnnie Cochran either), who interviewed someone on the inside who asked, as a way of answering the question, why didn't the DA call someone from the police shop to testify how the Bronco looked when it was first seized and brought in to the yard.
Logged
ding7777
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 703


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2007, 05:29:29 PM »

Bob

If I was on the jury, I would have sadly voted "not guilty" only because I believe the PD did plant some of the blood.

 I think  Vanander 's(sp?) reasoning for taking the blood vial to Bundy was nonsense.

But I still think OJ did it.
Logged
Bob In Pacifica
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4204


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2007, 03:15:47 PM »

Sarah, I called it the Bundy murders because that's where they happened. I guess it could have been confused with Ted Bundy. I guess I was trying to avoid the same thing as titling it to presume the crime and blame, such as "Duke lacrosse rape case."

+++

Ding, we have only just begun. Think of the reasons why you think that Simpson committed the murders. Then think of the array of talk show hosts (and radio, all media in fact) that crowed on a daily basis that Simpson was guilty. That's what logic has to overcome. The ultimate prejudice of the entire media against him.
Logged
MarkRougemont
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1377



Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2007, 09:20:42 AM »

Sarah, I called it the Bundy murders because that's where they happened. I guess it could have been confused with Ted Bundy. I guess I was trying to avoid the same thing as titling it to presume the crime and blame, such as "Duke lacrosse rape case."

+++

Ding, we have only just begun. Think of the reasons why you think that Simpson committed the murders. Then think of the array of talk show hosts (and radio, all media in fact) that crowed on a daily basis that Simpson was guilty. That's what logic has to overcome. The ultimate prejudice of the entire media against him.

  Bob, I confess that I watched days and days of this trial but my memory of the facts of the case are not good enough to comment on. If you could provide a link to a timeline or facts/disputed facts it would be helpful.  At the time I thought he did it and still do. I thought the prosecution of the case was poorly handled and the police investigation was botched and that is why the jury decided not guilty. The judge was a total mess, and not in control of the case from day one, and some of the 'expert' testimony was not so expert after all.
Logged
Sarah
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2251


Re: Next of kin change times [Bundy murders]
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2007, 02:28:40 PM »

Sarah, I called it the Bundy murders because that's where they happened. I guess it could have been confused with Ted Bundy. I guess I was trying to avoid the same thing as titling it to presume the crime and blame, such as "Duke lacrosse rape case."



I see, I am afraid the Bundy reference confused me, I thought of the person (Ted) not the place, I can understand your reasoning especially if you believe OJ Simpson is not guilty, however it might have been better to call it the Murder of Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Advertise Here